Results 1141 - 1160 of 1443
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1141 | How can anyone be saved? | 1 Cor 2:14 | Emmaus | 60710 | ||
John, "because God raised up men like Luther, Calvin, Knox and others who restored the gospel that Paul preached to the church of Jesus Christ! FAITH ALONE!" The problem with the above statement is that Paul never prerached Faith Alone and the concept as the Reformers taught it was never taught by the Church until Luther and Calvin arrived. The words "faith alone" are found nowhere in Paul only in James where it says, "we are NOT SAVED BY FAITH ALONE but by works," although James never says works alone any more than Paul says faith alone. You have to rework Paul's language to make it say more than it does to come out with faith alone. And then you have back track and say "we are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone" as you said to Bubba, in order accomodate James. Why not just admit that saving faith for Paul is obedient faith (Rom 1:5; 16:26) that "works in love" (Eph 5:6) which is exactly the same point that James is making in his letter. A faith without works of love or works of obedient faith is dead and therefore no faith at all. To admit that takes nothing away from God since even faith and its intrinsic works come as a free gift by grace and therefore all the glory goes to God anyway. Emmaus |
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1142 | The "awful" Truth? | John 18:38 | Emmaus | 60366 | ||
Joe, Part II of II "Divine success — a success, that is, that is larger than man’s intellect, larger even than man’s whole being — that must always appear paradoxical. It must, that is to say, be continual failure — a failure so complete that it ought to be the end of the enterprise, and yet not be the end of the enterprise. Its success must be expressed in terms of failure; as a sunlit sea, or lovelit eyes, must sometimes be expressed in terms of a black lead pencil. The Divine Cause must simultaneously appear to have failed, and yet not to have done so. It must just survive, always, in spite of any possible argument and demonstration to the contrary. "May I state that once more in other terms? "Any truly divine scheme — any scheme — that is to say, that is not human and finite — must always overlap any human criterion that can be applied to it. It must, that is, judged by purely human standards, be an apparent failure. But it must never be such a failure that it ceases to exist. You must be able to say of it: It has failed intellectually and emotionally; it does not correspond with the demand. And yet it survives. That is, it has not really failed at all. . . . "There must be a sense, in fact, in which the Church must not only be a failing cause, but a cause that has actually failed — a cause that is both dead and buried. It must continually, according to these standards, be completely discredited. As one who has promised to accomplish much, but has accomplished nothing; one who has claimed to be King, but has only earned a mock crown of thorns; one who has professed to save others, but cannot save even Himself. "Again and again, that taunt must go up, ‘Come down from the cross and we will believe. . . . Relinquish that failure, and make it a success. Cease to claim to be divine — for you see how hopelessly you fail to justify it. See what happens to one who makes Himself divine — and be human instead. Come down to our level, and be a man among men; and we will believe, and accept you as at least our Master.’ "But that taunt cannot be accepted. The failure must be entire. The last spark of life must die out, obedient unto death — that one irremediable disaster. ‘And Jesus cried out: It is finished’." After a chapter on "the Sepulture [Sepulcher]," Benson insists in the chapter "The Resurrection" that the Church will find its "Second Spring," that despite all the obituaries the literati and elites are writing for the Church, "we see that she lives with an impulse and vitality that are simply unique in human history; that at the very moment when the ‘wise and prudent’ declare her dead, the wise and prudent return to her as the source of all life and knowledge; that at the very moment when the masses are alienated from her, the masses turn again to her... " |
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1143 | The "awful" Truth? | John 18:38 | Emmaus | 60365 | ||
Joe, Part I of II "Divine success — a success, that is, that is larger than man’s intellect, larger even than man’s whole being — that must always appear paradoxical. It must, that is to say, be continual failure — a failure so complete that it ought to be the end of the enterprise, and yet not be the end of the enterprise. Its success must be expressed in terms of failure; as a sunlit sea, or lovelit eyes, must sometimes be expressed in terms of a black lead pencil. The Divine Cause must simultaneously appear to have failed, and yet not to have done so. It must just survive, always, in spite of any possible argument and demonstration to the contrary. "May I state that once more in other terms? "Any truly divine scheme — any scheme — that is to say, that is not human and finite — must always overlap any human criterion that can be applied to it. It must, that is, judged by purely human standards, be an apparent failure. But it must never be such a failure that it ceases to exist. You must be able to say of it: It has failed intellectually and emotionally; it does not correspond with the demand. And yet it survives. That is, it has not really failed at all. . . . "There must be a sense, in fact, in which the Church must not only be a failing cause, but a cause that has actually failed — a cause that is both dead and buried. It must continually, according to these standards, be completely discredited. As one who has promised to accomplish much, but has accomplished nothing; one who has claimed to be King, but has only earned a mock crown of thorns; one who has professed to save others, but cannot save even Himself. "Again and again, that taunt must go up, ‘Come down from the cross and we will believe. . . . Relinquish that failure, and make it a success. Cease to claim to be divine — for you see how hopelessly you fail to justify it. See what happens to one who makes Himself divine — and be human instead. Come down to our level, and be a man among men; and we will believe, and accept you as at least our Master.’ "But that taunt cannot be accepted. The failure must be entire. The last spark of life must die out, obedient unto death — that one irremediable disaster. ‘And Jesus cried out: It is finished’." After a chapter on "the Sepulture [Sepulcher]," Benson insists in the chapter "The Resurrection" that the Church will find its "Second Spring," that despite all the obituaries the literati and elites are writing for the Church, "we see that she lives with an impulse and vitality that are simply unique in human history; that at the very moment when the ‘wise and prudent’ declare her dead, the wise and prudent return to her as the source of all life and knowledge; that at the very moment when the masses are alienated from her, the masses turn again to her... " |
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1144 | The "awful" Truth? | John 18:38 | Emmaus | 60362 | ||
Joe, Pat I of II I thought you might appreciate this. You can substitute Christianity for Catholicism, but the essential point remains the same. T "The Stupendous Failure Of Calvary Robert Hugh Benson’s Christ in the Church (B. Herder, 1911). In one of the closing chapters, titled, "The Cross," Benson is considering "the magnitude of the failure of Christ, in the Gospels and in the Church. "Not only . . . does Christ not convince the world, but He cannot even keep His friends faithful. Peter, on whom the Church is built, denies Him; John, who lies on His breast at supper, is silent when His friend is accused. There was never any failure so stupendous as that of Calvary. "In history, it is precisely the same story, over and over again. It is possible for the enemies of the Church to point to period after period in history, and to show, with at any rate some reason on their side, that the failure of Catholicism is due to the failure of Catholics. ‘Your principles are splendid,’ they tell us; ‘at least they sound splendid. But why are they not put into practice?. . . You were magnificent under Nero and Diocletian; but so soon as you seemed really to have conquered the world, you allowed the world to conquer you. You saved others; you cannot save yourself. You were unworldly so long as Nero burnt and tortured you, but you became as worldly as everyone else so soon as Constantine tolerated you. You made a fine effort in the 13th century; you really produced some saints; but as soon as your religious houses were built, they began to corrupt. You had glorious ideals when you began to Christianize Europe; but as soon as you Christianized it you began to become pagan again yourselves in the Renaissance. . . . "Now this is precisely the story of the Gospels. Again and again there came moments when the success of Jesus Christ seemed almost assured. There were moments when the whole world went after Him who seemed so perfectly to meet its ideals; when the world itself would come and take Him by force and make Him a King; when the kingdoms of the world seemed laid at His feet; and yet, somehow or another, it all came to nothing. His whole life on earth was a kind of crescendo of popularity, up to the last moment; and then, in an instant, it all crumbled down again to nothing. Palm Sunday immediately preceded Good Friday. The procession of one was almost a replica of the procession of the other. There were a few details different; the spear-shaped palm became the palm-shaped spears; but the crowd was the same, the cries were the same, acclaiming the King of the Jews; the Central Figure was the same. But the triumph turned to failure as soon as His central claim was made. He was welcomed and honored as a mere earthly King; he was rejected and condemned as a Heavenly King. Humanly considered He was something of a success; divinely considered He was a failure. As a demagogue He would have triumphed; as a God He was crucified. "Now, all this is very largely true. We may regard the progress of Christ in the Gospels and in the Church as a triumph which fails, or as a failure which triumphs. Non-Christians take the one view, and Christians the other. It depends entirely on our standpoint — whether this world is our platform, or the next. . . ." |
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1145 | The "awful" Truth? | John 18:38 | Emmaus | 60353 | ||
billk, "Don't know much about history" Well, you are right about that at least. Emmaus |
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1146 | Scientific Cosmology vs. bible teaching. | Bible general Archive 1 | Emmaus | 60008 | ||
Lionstrong, St. Augustine. still one of the best Christian writers of time. He invented the literary form of autobiography with his "Confessions," and his other masterpiece is The City of God, both still in print and available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon.com among other places. Lots of great spiritual insight and exegesis. Since both books are in the public domain they are also available for reading online, along with all his other numerous writing. Just go to the link below and scroll dowwn to Augustine of Hippo and you can get a preview. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/ Emmaus |
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1147 | is selling in a church building fine? | John 2:13 | Emmaus | 59724 | ||
Steve, More chilling than the thought that more people will hear the Bible read aloud in Church than are likely to read it for themselves, is the thought that they would not hear it at all if they did not hear it read to them. For fifteen hundred years of Christianity and a thousand years of Judaism hearing the Scripture read aloud was the only way most people heard Scripture, because most could neither read nor afford hand copied manuscripts. The manuscripts were community treasures. And scriptures was always taught and understood in the context of the community. And if you look at the amazing carved and stained glass artwork of the Medieval cathedrals you will see that they are Bibles in stone and glass; visual representations of the stories of salvation history at the center of the community, always accessible day and night. Sometimes it seems we don't know how good we have it and the old adgage that "familiarity breeds contempt" is applicable to our easy access to Scripture. What would once be consider a treaure, and still is in countries where the Church is persecuted, now in Europe and America gathers dust on a shelf or is just an ornament on many coffee tables. Emmaus |
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1148 | Psalms 14 and Romans 3 | Ps 14:5 | Emmaus | 59457 | ||
John, You said: "My own interpretation is that the generation of the righteous refers to believers. The true children of Abraham who were accounted righteous on the basis of faith. Rom 4:13 "For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith."" I think you are right on the money here. But if there is a generation of the rightoeus among the Jews, then also among the Gentiles since 3:9 lumps them together. Of course we also remember that Abraham was a Gentile and had Gentile offspring. But how would the faith of Abraham and his offspring be manifested other than by "the obedience of faith," and all this before the Law and any "works of the Law" were delivered? By grace to be sure, flowing from the atonement of Christ, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. But grace is a gift that, once accepted, produces a fruitful obedient faith, without "works of the Law," but with works of faith that manifests the righteousness of faith by God's grace in Christ. What do you think? Emmaus |
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1149 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59122 | ||
Hi Joe, I am not surprised you disagree with Akin. If you did I would expect to be hearing strains of the "Te Deum" being sung in the background. But as I pointed out, and your exchanges with Arminians on this forum indicate, disagreement with significant aspects of Calvin's doctrine on grace, free will and perseverence of the saints is not just a Catholic thing. You may have noticed in the footnotes that all of Akin's references for his position were not Catholic. Particulary the reference to the Calvinist's author's book on the history of the doctrine of the preservation of the saints. That might be an interesting read. You were a little quiet on the forum for a while compared to your normal output. Have you heard from Hank lately? Emmaus |
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1150 | past prophecy or future or both? | Mic 7:5 | Emmaus | 59120 | ||
Cynic, Thank you for your kind post. You can't find the program in my post because I don't have one and do not think it is appropriate for this forum which wasn't not set up as a classroom for me to teach. Melanie asked me for a reading list to which I must give some thought, since I do not have one ready made and have never been asked for one before. I have never been described as a master of apologetics, but I do try to discuss matters of faith as if I were having a conversation with a sincere friend who may disagree and believe differently from me. I try to approach it that way because that is how I actually developed a deeper understanding of the biblical roots of my faith. I grew up pretty much immersed in a Catholic environment of Church and school all through High School. Going to a state college was quite a change of environment. I was constanly being challenged on my faith either overtly by individuals or covertly by the entire secular acadmeic environment. In those days '68- '72 it was not just Evangelical Christians, but also Hari Krishnas, B'hais, Theosophical / Occultic types and the emerging Marxist / Socialists mind set of many professors. The Evangelicals however were constant in their belief and we at least had a common ground of Christianity, although some of them might have denied Catholics were Christians. What I discovered was that we spoke a different language. They spoke Bible. I spoke Church, sacraments, and catechism, which had a biblical base but one which for me was in the background and taken for granted. We did read the bible in my family and we did discuss it, but we did not memorize it for doctrinal purposes. Doctrine was learned by catechism. I knew scripture but I could not quote chapter and verse off the top of my head and did not use it the way my Evangelical friends did. So I had to learn to speak Bible like they did in order to communicate with them, since they were not inclined to learn catechism, at least not mine. It was actually an enriching experience for me, since it made conscious to me what had previously been semi-concious, that is the biblical roots of my Catholic faith. And I owe a debt of thanks to the friends who engaged me in conversation and challenged me. It led me into a deeper and richer understanding of my own faith. I still have the paperback New Testament I had then, 30 years ago. It is all marked up and the binding is off after being box taped a few times. I did not have a TV or computer (PCs did not exist) in my room in those days, just a clock radio, so I did a lot of reading. Since then I have had a number of friends tell me that I am the only Catholic they have ever met whos discusses the Catholic faith from a biblical perspective. I think that may be less common now days but still many Catholics approach scripture through the Mass readings and sacraments which which is a different way of learing about scripture, which leads to a different way of talking about it. My duaghter while attending a Catholic high school had to take a year long Scripture course. She got the nick name, "The Bible reader's daughter." It seems she stuck out because early on in the year she could go quickly to chapter and verse when told to look up a passage and was asked by her classmates to explain this strange proficiency. She blamed it on me. When the reference shelf was pointed out to her by the teacher, she said: "My father already has all those books at home and some other ones too that you don't have here." In any case, that is little part of my story. Let me know your e-mail and I will sent you a copy of the list when I make it if you are interested. Emmaus |
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1151 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59111 | ||
John, I would not have much to disagree with you about on this post. It is true that the Catholic Church does not hold to Sola Fide. It is the Sola part it disputes, because its definition of faith includes the fruit of works as opposed to separating them. If you think of works in Christ and see where St. Paul says that three things last; faith, hope and charity (works in Christ) you can see how these three are bound together intrinsically by grace. And this without even bringing James into the picture. Another way to avoid what I comsider to be the false argument between Paul and James is to just look at how Paul opens and closes Romans talking about the "obedience of faith." What is that but works in Christ and an intrinsic part of faith? I sometimes think too much is made of these distinctions by category in theology, since the actual practice in the daily activities of life is often the same among believers who argue over the theological distinctions. EdB has expressed the same thought as you about penance. I can't for the life of me understand why you both see it that way. I don't see it in that light at all, but rather as an outward expression of turning back to God who calls us by His grace and getting back in tune with His grace. It seems a very biblical concept to me. I suspect it is the formal connection you see to a sacrament which you do not acknowledge that is off putting. I certainly know Born Again Protestants who have done and are doing penance for sins which have been forgiven, but they may not call it by that name or connect it with a sacrament. Emmaus |
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1152 | past prophecy or future or both? | Mic 7:5 | Emmaus | 59027 | ||
Melanie, What an interesting story you have! I will give some thought to a course of reading and send you a list by e-mail. There is a lot out there but I would like to keep any list of recommended titles reasonably limited. I am happy to continue any discussion of particular passages online, but I feel it would not be fair to the rest of the forum or within the rules to set up a separate "Catholic Scripture Study Program" so to speak, on the forum. Emmaus |
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1153 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59026 | ||
John, All is forgiven. I have received much worse and sometimes with malice which I did not perceive in your posts. And I have been known to get a little testy myself on occassion. As for the document you mention about the evangelization of Jews, I have read an article on it.I will try to find the article and if it is on the web I will send you a link. You need to be aware first, that it does not represent the whole body of American bishops and it is a document of a small ecumenical commitee as I recall.I am not even certain of the exact language. This is the kind of thing that gives Catholics like me heart burn, because these kind of documents are not authoritative teaching of the universal Church, but are often perceived as or presented as such in the secular media. For authoritative teaching that got lots of people upset because it took a strong position on evangelization of all people see the declaration "Dominus Jesus" on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church, which reasserts that the mission of Chrit's Church is to evalgelize ALL people and condems indifferentism. You can see it at this link: http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM Emmaus |
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1154 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59023 | ||
John, I can not speak for Arminians but I do not think the statement below is an accurate representation of Catholic doctrine. "Arminians believe that salvation rests in the hands of man. So do catholics"... John Here is the Council of Trent on three areas we have touched on: CHAPTER VIII HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44] these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46] 44. Rom. 3:24; 5:1. 45. Heb. 11:6. 46. Rom. 11:6. CHAPTER X THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written: He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56] This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays: "Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity."[57] 49. Eph. 2:19. 50. Ps. 83:8. 51. See 2 Cor. 4:16. 52. Col. 3:5. 53. Rom. 6:13, 19. 54. Apoc. 22:11. 55. Ecclus. 18:22. 56. James 2:24. 57. Thirteenth Sunday after Pentecost. CHAPTER XIII THE GIFT OF PERSEVERANCE Similarly with regard to the gift of perseverance, of which it is written: He that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved,[75] which cannot be obtained from anyone except from Him who is able to make him stand who stands,[76] that he may stand perseveringly, and to raise him who falls, let no one promise himself herein something as certain with an absolute certainty, though all ought to place and repose the firmest hope in God's help. For God, unless men themselves fail in His grace, as he has begun a good work, so will he perfect it, working to will and to accomplish.[77] Nevertheless, let those who think themselves to stand, take heed lest they fall,[78] and with fear and trembling work out their salvation,[79] in labors, in watchings, in almsdeeds, in prayer, in fastings and chastity. For knowing that they are born again unto the hope of glory,[80] and not as yet unto glory, they ought to fear for the combat that yet remains with the flesh, with the world and with the devil, in which they cannot be victorious unless they be with the grace of God obedient to the Apostle who says: We are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh; for if you live according to the flesh, you shall die, but if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the flesh, you shall live.[81] 75. Matt. 10:22; 24:13. 76. Rom. 14:4. 77. Phil. 1:6, 2:13. 78. See 1 Cor. 10:12. 79. Phil. 2:12. 80. See 1 Pet. 1:3. 81. Rom. 8:12f. Emmaus |
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1155 | past prophecy or future or both? | Mic 7:5 | Emmaus | 59017 | ||
Melanie, He must be speaking as a sinner himself,since he speaks of God saving him in verse 7 and he says it directly in verse 9 that he is a sinner who suffers the anger of Yahweh. See Romans 1:18. I don't see this as a messianic prophecy,but the sinner here seems to foreshadow what St Paul says in Romans 6:5 As for your question How does one study the bible without a teacher?, I don't think it can be done effectively as indicated in Acts 8:26-39. But that does not stop people from trying. In my particular case I belong to a Church with Sacred Tradition and authoriy to shed light on and in some case authoritatively interpret difficult or disputed passages of the scripture. I truly believe that most of those who profess "scripture alone" with only the Holy Spirit to guide them usually in reality are also following the teaching and tradition of their own churches. And some of them even acknowlege the place of their tradition in their learning although perhaps not in the same manner as Catholics. Emmaus |
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1156 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59013 | ||
John, Aikin did not say that the calvinists position is based on analogies, only that they use them as a way of explaining their position (who doesn't?), nor did he say they were used to the exclusion of scriptural support. He later cited a few of verse used to support the Calvinist position. He merely says he does not agree with their interpretation and that there are other passages to support others positions. And those positions are often other Protestant positions, not necessarily Catholic as can be seen by a brief look at the archives of this forum. I don't think either of us are surprised we disagree in a number of ways on this subject. As I stated in a previous post, I was just trying to broaden the discussion beyond the boundaries of an in house debate already ongoing for a long time. Emmaus |
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1157 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59012 | ||
John, I would agree with your straw man point. But that was not the whole of the argument being made, just a part of it. And it was not my personal argument, but part of one I cited. I included the footnotes so you could see the complete context and background of that section of a much larger article which I cited. I was appraching this as an academic exercise. Most of the arguments about grace, free will and perserverence of the saints on this forum take place between Calvinist and Arminian Protestants. Most people are not aware that there are two similar schools within the Catholic Church known as Thomist and Molinist. I was only trying to broaden the scope of the theological background on a particular subject area. Emmaus |
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1158 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 59011 | ||
John, We apparently got different messages growing up since were are not far apart in age. I have been a Catholic all my 52 years and every year I lean more heavily on Jesus and God's grace. The "works" that Catholics do are works of grace done in Christ because of His grace. I have never been under the illusion or delusion that I could save myself by works. But someone professing to be a Christian in the ordinary context (i.e. not like the thief on the cross) without any works in Christ would seem to me to be to be bereft of grace and therefore not saved. The purpose of my post was to show both the similarities and difference between the Catholic and Calvinist approach to the subject of perseverence of the saints which was raised in your exchange with RespectHim. In some ways I think the two positions are much closer than some people would think. Emmaus |
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1159 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 58868 | ||
John, Part II of the foot notes for the part of the "article I previously posted. 37. For further discussion see Robert Shank, Life in the Son (Minneapolis: Bethany House, 1989) and Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 348ff. Both authors are Baptists who believe in conditional security, not eternal security. 38. For example, if a person was predestined to enter my living room, it would not mean he was predestined to remain forever in my living room. 39. Catholic theology has defined "predestined" to mean "predestined to final salvation." Thus those who will end up with God in heaven are spoken of as "the predestined" or "the elect." That a person experiences salvation at some point does not mean he is among the predestined (those God has chosen to persevere to the end). 40. Once the philosophical issue is cleared up, we can evaluate the teaching of Scripture objectively. When we do so, it is clear there are numerous indications in the Bible that a person can lose salvation. We already have mentioned John 15:1-6, Romans 8:12f, 17, 11:20-24, and 14:15-20. There are many more. Robert Shank gives a list of eighty-five passages he believes will, if carefully interpreted in context, show that loss of salvation is possible; see Shank, 333-337. 41. I recognized this fact even when I was an ardent Protestant. 42. "Sanctification" and "saintification" are the same word in Greek. When one has been completely sanctified (made holy), one has become a saint in the fullest sense of the word. Since this happens only in heaven, it corresponds to the common Catholic usage of the term "saint." 43. Trent's Decree of Justification, canon 16, speaks of "that great and special gift of final perseverance," and chapter 13 of the decree speaks of "the gift of perseverance of which it is written: 'He who perseveres to the end shall be saved [Matt. 10:22, 24:13],' which cannot be obtained from anyone except from him who is able to make him who stands to stand [Rom. 14:4]." 44. Aquinas said it always saves a person because of the kind of grace it is; Molina said it always saves a person because God only gives it to those whom he knows will respond to it. But the effect is the same: The gift of final perseverance always works. 45. ST I:23:6. 46. ST I-II:109:10. 47. The fact Calvinists are not aware of this shows a lack of scholarship. Presbyterian theologian R. C. Sproul attempts to redefine Calvinism as the "Augustinian" view. While Calvin's view of predestination might be a variation of Augustine's view, the two are not the same. Augustine did not believe in Calvin's understanding of the "perseverance of the saints," and neither did the broadly Augustinian tradition. That understanding was new with Calvin. For an accurate historical discussion of perseverance of the saints, see J. J. Davis's article "Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine," in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society, 34/2 (June 1991), 213-228. Davis is himself a Calvinist, and it is fitting a Calvinist help correct the errors of other Calvinists on the history of their doctrine." footnotes from "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Akin Emmaus |
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1160 | when is someone saved? | Rom 10:9 | Emmaus | 58867 | ||
John, Here are the footnotes from the article I cited. you may have noticed the numbers in the text of my previous post. It will take two posts. This is Part I. "33. Many Calvinists prefer the phrase "preservation of the saints" since it puts emphasis on God's preservation of the saints rather than on the saints' efforts in persevering (which is thought to smack of "works-salvation"). This often results in a "holier-than-thou" attitude ("Look how holy I am; I place the emphasis on God's action, not man's"). But Scripture normally uses a human point of view. It calls men to repent, have faith, convert, and persevere. When one insists on preservation-language over perseverance-language, one is actually taking a holier-than-thou attitude, because the one who wrote Scripture used perseverance-language more than preservation-language. In effect one is playing spiritual one-upmanship with Scripture and the one who wrote Scripture. 34. This differs from the "once saved, always saved" teaching common in Baptist circles. According to that theory, a person never can lose his salvation, no matter what he does. Even if he leaves the faith and renounces Christ he will be saved. Perseverance of the saints states that, while a person will lose his salvation if he fails to persevere in faith and holiness, all who do come to God will persevere. If a person does not persevere, it shows he did not come to God in the first place. Passages such as 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21, which say a person will not inherit the kingdom if he commits certain sins, are understood to mean that, if one habitually commits these sins, he was never a true Christian, no matter how sincere he appeared. Both "once saved, always saved" and perseverance of the saints teach "eternal security," but they are not the same. Calvinism admits there are mortal sins, such as failure to persevere, but says that no one who is saved commits these sins. "Once saved, always saved" says no sins would be mortal for a Christian, even in principle. 35. Elements of these responses are brought together in Luke 15, where the prodigal son begins as a son, then leaves the family and is spoken of by the father as "dead," only to return to the family and be spoken of as being "alive again" (Luke 15:24, 32). Christ teaches we can be sons, die spiritually by severing our ties to the family, then come back and be alive again--spiritually resurrected. 36. John 6:37-38 and 10:27-29 are taken out of context with John 15:1-6, which states Christians are branches in the vine which is Christ (v. 5), that God removes every branch from Christ which does not bear fruit (v. 2), and that the destiny of these branches is to be burned (v. 6). Romans 8:35-39 is taken out of context with Romans 11:20-24, where Paul compares spiritual Israel to an olive tree and states that since certain branches of spiritual Israel were broken off because of unbelief in Christ (v. 20), Christians will not be spared if they fall into unbelief (v. 21), but will be cut off (v. 22). The branches which had been broken off may be grafted in again (vv. 23-24). Romans 8:35-39 is also taken out of context with Romans 8:12f, 17, and 14:15, 20." footnotes from "A Tiptoe Through TULIP" by James Akin Emmaus |
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