Results 1 - 9 of 9
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Results from: Notes On or After: Thu 12/31/70 Author: mattone Ordered by Verse |
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Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | I missed the boat. Please explain. | Genesis | mattone | 12563 | ||
Hey Guys, there are a few different scholarly views on the sin of Ham against his father Noah. And yes, there are scholars of excellent reputation who feel there was possibly some homosexual activity here because of the severity of the curse. For instance, in Deuteronomy 20:13-18, we get an idea of the degree of the curse's severity. In this passage we find a comparison of how Israel was to treat the nations of Canaan, versus those descended from Shem. Verse 16 shows us how Canaan was to be dealt with as a people, and I quote, "Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes". Without doubt this was a serious curse. But it would be stretching these passages beyond good exegesis to be dogmatic about this interpretation of Genesis 9:20ff. Simply put, Ham sinned against God and his father Noah, and for that, Ham's son Canaan and his descendants were cursed with great severity. Another idea that has probably not been considered, is the fact that it might not have been Ham's sin at that time, but Ham's sinfulness in general. Let me give you an example of what I mean, do you remember when Isaac asked Esau to make him a stew so he could bless him? The stew was not the cause of the blessing, it just provided the occasion for the blessing. Likewise, the same sort of situation may apply where Ham and his sin against his father is concerned. This particular sin may have just provided the occasion for Noah to curse Ham's son Canaan for Ham's sinfulness in general. But again, we cannot, and should not, be dogmatic on these points. In closing, I would suggest that there are such enormous truths surrounding these passages on the "table of nations" and how Israel's subsequent move towards the promised land would be effected by these verses in Genesis 9, that anymore than just a small amount of time spent on the exact nature of Ham's sin would be a great waste of time. Now Moses must have also seen it in a similar light or he would have explained further, but his presentation of these texts focuses on the above concerning the division of the nations, and their fate where Israel was concerned, etc... We must remember that Moses' original audience for these passages were the Israelites after the Exodus as they moved towards the land of Canaan. Ham's exact indiscretion was not important, but the curse, and the subsequent treatment of different peoples as Israel both approached and moved into Canaan would have been of enormous value to this original audience of Moses' writings. Therefore, this is probably where we should concentrate our study efforts. If you agree, throw some questions and let's study God's Word. In Christ our King, --JCP. |
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2 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12179 | ||
Nolan, I'm not sure that you can support your idea scripturally. I do believe that God by His mercy protects the infant elect, but it has nothing to do with infants not knowing of their nature. You nor I can support this from Scripture? In addition, I think Steve's point is that everyone in Sodom (the Sodomites died in sin)was destroyed, including infants, and that the same would have happened in Ninevah had they not repented. Scripture tells us we are sinners from the beginning, period, and for that we are in need of a Saviour, period. I would suggest Dr Ronald Nash's book "When a Baby Dies", an excellent book by a professor from Reformed Theological Seminary on the subject. But there is no support from God's Word concerning those under the age of accountability, in fact I can't find text for this idea of an age of accountability. --JCP |
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3 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12205 | ||
Hey Tim, thanks for your response. but I feel as if I've said to much already, so I'm going to respond once more and then give some others a chance to participate. First, Romans 7:9 is a difficult passage. The best of Christian minds have had trouble with this text. In fact, in 10 commentaries on Romans 7:9, I could find not one allusion to the idea of the age of accountability, not to mention that Paul in his entire argument here makes no reference to the subject either. Now the rules of exegesis tell us that Scripture interprets Scripture. So here we have this 1 verse that as you put it, could be a possible reference to the age of accountability, a verse in which Paul makes no reference to the subject, and of the many commentaries I referenced not one even remotely saw this verse in that light. Yet on the other hand we have the entirety of the Pauline corpus that speaks of all men being born into sin as a result of Adam's federal headship. "As it is written, There is none righteous, not even one" (Rom 3:10, Psalm 14:1,3, 53:1,3). To quote Paul again, "all have fallen short of the glory of God". In Ephesians 2 the Apostle tells us we were dead men, dead in our trespasses and sin. So we have one obscure verse with possible inference as you put it, versus the entirety of Paul's teaching, not to mention the rest of Scripture, that in Adam we are all born into sin, and are held responsible for that sin. Now you are right, this is not the place for a debate on the "Doctrines of Grace", but from your semi-pelagian perspective, when you assume that our Lord died for those who are in hell,then you must also assume that his blood was not effective enough where their souls were concerned. But when you assume that Christ died for the sins of the elect, of which, not one will be lost, then we know that his sacrifice was completely effective, and this I believe is the supported view of Scripture. But I digress, for we have traveled a long way from the original question, for where Romans 7:9 is a bit on the difficult side, David's words are quite clear, "Behold I was brought forth in iniquity"(Psalm 51:5), "Purify me with Hyssop and I will be clean, Wash me and I shall be whiter than snow" (Psalm 51:7). Also your Brother in our Lord, JCP. |
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4 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12268 | ||
Yes, Nolan I'm sad to say we do have some difference here. There was a time when the discussion of God's Word was a noble thing, people were not afraid of words like doctrine and theology, and it was not considered plunging one's self, I assume by your tone, into something negative, by hearty, though courteous discussion. You speak of Tim's reply, and not to beat up on Tim but (yes the but word again..), he alluded to the fact that in Sodom's destruction, their eternal state was not in view. What about Abraham's dialogue with the Angel of the Lord, "for just 10 righteous men I will not destroy Sodom" (excuse my paraphrasing). What of the Apostle's quoting of Isaiah and Jeremiah in Romans 9:29, "except the Lord of Sabbath had left us a POSTERITY, we would become as Sodom". Or what of Peter's comparison of the Sodomites and Lot in II Peter 2:6ff, look particularly at verse 9 and 10. Nolan, my concern is that we look honestly at Scripture, and that we represent it faithfully. My intent is not to insult but to build up and I cannot find the Age of Accountability in Scripture, nor does Romans 7:9 seem to support the notion. Please forgive me if I have offended you in any way, my confidence though is in Christ and his word faithfully taught. Your brother in Christ, Peace. --JCP |
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5 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12407 | ||
Hey Nolan, I was so pleased to get your note, thank you. And yes, I do agree many of these types of discussions laspe into arguments that stray far from the questions or text at hand. As to James 4:17, wouldn't one's realization of right from wrong result from the Spirit's indwelling, thus the quickening of their spirit? Or to use the words of Jesus, they now have eyes to see, and ears to hear (see Matthew 13). Doesn't Paul say in Romans 8:7-8 that the person who is in the flesh (unsaved) is not even able to please God? In Christ our King, Peace. --JCP |
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6 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12409 | ||
Hey Debbie, thanks for your note. Not to sound confrontational, but Debbie, why do you believe this? The debate is on infants who as others have alluded to, know no sin, and you add that Christ covers their sins. This would put the debate in a completely different light. Now please don't assume that I'm being smug, my question is in earnest, but why do you believe this? Also, it would help me if you could be a little more specific, and tell me how you support it from Scripture. This way I could better respond. As I do believe you have treaded unto a path of truth, but why is it truth? In the Love of Christ, --JCP |
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7 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12554 | ||
Hey Nolan, let me backup and approach this another way, because we are beginning to confuse issues. Your belief, being from an Arminian perspective, teaches that Christ died for all humans. That humans possess free will, the ability to accept or reject God's offer of Grace, and that election is based totally on God's foreknowledge into the future of those who will accept that gift. Therefore, only those persons who exercise their "free will", by rejecting death and accepting life are saved. So Christ's death only created the possibility of salvation for anyone, that is, anyone who exercises his or her "will" for life. So God does not unconditionally elect anyone to salvation without that person's exercising of their consent to His gift of eternal life. Then we come to the idea of infants and/or incapables, those who as you put it, have not reached an age of accountability, or a state of culpability for their sin nature, thus their inevitable sins. So if they die in that state, you are pronouncing them saved because God now unconditionally elects them to that state of grace, since they can not do it themselves. Or, I guess there is of course the possibility in your system, that God MUST save these infants and incapables because they are without blemish. For God punishes us for our sins. Have you seriously thought about this? Nolan, in all of this, where does Paul's statement in Ephesians 2:8-10 come in? Or what about your own agreement with me on the point that, "anyone in the flesh cannot please God, and we all start out that way". This of course being without doubt a biblical perspective. Nolan, if you believe that God elects infants unconditionally, then you're a Calvinist, which then creates problems with the rest of your system, and if you believe he must save infants because they are sinless, then you really don't agree that we all start out that way, dead in our sins and trespasses unable to even please God. And of course, this would put you in the position of disagreeing with Scripture, which you've already said that you do agree with it. By the way, and you've never asked me, you just started disagreeing with me in pricipal, but I to believe that infants and incapables are saved. Can you guess how? Nolan, I want you to think about one more thing, why did God save Ninevah, 120,000 persons who also did not know their right hand from their left. But in Deuteronomy 20:13-18 we find a different situation, and I quote verse 16, "Only in the cities of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you shall not leave alive anything that breathes". Just some food for thought. I pray the Lord is blessing you and yours..., for in Him we live, move, and have our existence--JCP |
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8 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12611 | ||
Hey Nolan, I'm sorry you feel baited, that was not my intention. My friend in Christ, it is you who have gotten off of the original subject. Which was, When do we become sinners, and the interpretation of Psalms 51:5-6. But, I understand if you don't want to answer my questions, questions that were clearly directed at YOUR arguments on the state of Infants and Incapables in death, and the so-called "age of accountability". Obviously I've hit a sore spot, I apologize. Have a great day and a blessed weekend. --JCP |
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9 | When do we become sinners? | Ps 51:5 | mattone | 12834 | ||
Nolan, we are nowhere near a deeper issue!!! These arguments are referred to in most circles as BASIC Christianity. Anyone can understand that it is God who saves and not us who save ourselves. Again Basic Christianity. For example: For by grace you have been saved, not of works, lest any man boast. For it does not depend on the man who wills, or runs, but on God who has mercy on whom He will have mercy. It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. Nolan, "go and learn what this means, I desire compassion and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call the righteous, BUT SINNERS (emphasis and paraphrasing is mine). None come unto the Father unless I first call them. For I am confident that HE WHO BEGAN A GOOD WORK IN You will perfect it until the day of Jesus Christ. Nolan, it is you and Tim who opened this can of worms about infants and the age of accountability. Every reply I've given you is towards that discussion. My last reply was repeating your belief, using your words, are you ashamed of them? Nolan, we both believe God saves infants, I'm asking you to defend yours with Scripture. I believe you can, as I alluded to in my earlier reply. But where in scripture is there state of moral neutrality for anyone? And if there is not one, then again, it is that God chooses whom he will have mercy on! Nolan, if this next reply is like your last one, then I must say good bye to this subject and move on. But let me say that you are forever my brother in Christ, for it is he that will keep us from harms way! --JCP |
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