Results 1 - 17 of 17
|
|
|||||
Results from: Notes On or After: Thu 12/31/70 Author: Aliehs Ordered by Date |
||||||
Results | Verse | Author | ID# | |||
1 | Holy Grail and it's relevance | John 20:29 | Aliehs | 99598 | ||
Hello Makarios! Thank you for taking time to answer my questions and sharing your comments :o). You are indeed correct that our faith is not based on artifacts / speculations (or science, for that matter). It is based on the Word of God :o)! I have not read the Holy Blood, Holy Grail book in detail (just parts of it in summary) and though it was interesting at first, I guess I got kinda put off by the claim of Jesus' marriage to Mary Magdalene and that He didn't really die. My thought was "Here's the devil trying to deceive the people by disclaiming the resurrection of Christ again!" But you put an interesting reference in your post ('The Templars' by Piers Paul Read) so perhaps I should try to find that book and read it :o). God bless you! Aliehs (Sheila) |
||||||
2 | Is a state marriage recognised by God? | Rom 13:1 | Aliehs | 83541 | ||
Thank you for your answer, mommapbs. And for the Biblical references too. By looking at these verses, then yes, I believe that God does recognise a state marriage as marriage in His eyes, and that it need not necessarily be at a church. | ||||||
3 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22866 | ||
Hi Joe, I didn't mean for this to become such a debate. I appreciate you sharing with me all your points indeed, and yes, I will go deeper into the word to understand the true meaning of righteousness and what is expected from God. I'll not discuss this with you anymore as I think it has got more than it's fair share of discussion here :o). I will however, leave this thread with the following: [Kings Site on the Net] SCRIPTURE THOUGHT Scripture Thought for the Day Month 11 Thought 13 of 25 Everyone Who Practices Righteousness Is Born Of Him! 1 John 2 Let Truth Abide in You 24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He has promised us--eternal life. 26These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. 27But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him. The Children of God 28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. Christian truth is fixed and unalterable. If we stay faithful to the truth, we continue to experience intimate communion with God and Christ and persevere to eternal life. John is not denying the importance of gifted teachers in the church but indicates that neither those teachers nor those believers are dependent on human wisdom or the opinions of men for the truth. God's Holy Spirit guards and guides the truth believer into all the truth. Whenever John refers to abiding, he is referring to persevering in the faith of salvation which is evidence of being a true believer. The hope of Christ's return produces the effect of continual abiding in every true believer as we long for the glorious future prepared for us. Abiding signifies a permanent remaining in Christ and guarantees the believer's hope. Those who truly abide, continue in the faith and in fellowship with the saints. Salvation is eternal because of the Lord's side--He holds us and because of our side--we persevere in faith and obedience. In the case of salvation, God sovereignly saves but not apart from personal faith from the one He saves. In the case of sanctification, God conforms us to His Son but not apart from obedience. The hope of Christ's return not only sustains faith but makes righteousness a habit. Those truly born again as God's children have their heavenly Father's righteous nature. As a result, they will display characteristics of God's righteousness. John looks from effect (righteous behavior) to cause (being truly born again) to affirm that righteous living is the proof of being born again. Time to Think: If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him! Bless you, Joe. You're a dear brother in Christ :o). |
||||||
4 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22863 | ||
Hi Charis :o). From my knowledge about stairs and escalators, they both go up and down ;o). I take it that when you say "easy paths", you mean smooth situations and circumstances without struggles. That is, life without struggles. That's not what I'm taking the "escalator" for. My "escalator" is the conformation by the Holy Spirit of my life instead of the conformation of myself on my own. My paths may still be difficult, but the Holy Spirit will ensure that the more I become like Jesus, the easier it'll be for me to handle/react to difficult and trying situations. In Christ's love, Aliehs |
||||||
5 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22521 | ||
My faith in the love of God, my faith that He has made me a brand new creation (pure and righteous in His eyes), my faith that He will finish the good work He had begun in me is strong. My works WILL show EFFORTLESSLY because of that. It will pass the fire test because it is HIM working in me not me working in me. I challenge you to spend your time regularly with God to meditate on His word and talk to Him about your life. Then be silent and listen for His direction. And FOLLOW His directions out of LOVE. Matthew 22:36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.” 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Once you are able to fulfil the GREATEST commandment of all, the rest will be effortless to fulfil. You say "Be sure from Scripture that yours is a living faith." My answer: I am. It's more alive to me than anything I've ever known - GLORY BE TO GOD!!!! He'll never say "I don't know you!" to me because my life is ENTIRELY in His hands - ENTIRELY. You can take the stairs up if you want - I'll take the escalator. |
||||||
6 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22520 | ||
If saying Mary's life was characterised by doing nothing, then yes, I'd be wrong. Which is why I didn't say it. And if you should imply that I'm doing nothing, or if I'm going to go about living in sin, then you're wrong in your understanding indeed!!!!!!!!!!! Horrifically wrong. True, I'm not yet like Jesus, and I AM changing, but I do NOT intend to change in my OWN strength. In order for me to experience true freedom and grow in my relationship with God, I have learnt to accept myself where I am and see myself the way God sees me - righteous. Even if I'm still learning from Him how I should BEHAVE so. I trust that God will be faithful to finish the good work He had began in me. With this belief that I've been already made right with God through Christ, I will begin to make real spiritual progress in my spiritual walk. One of the biggest issue I have to understand is that I CANNOT CHANGE MYSELF!!!! Trying to bring about a change in my own strength and through my plans will always result in frustration. My efforts will be in vain and I'll only give up on myself. When I say "God, I can't do this anymore. I have done everything I know to do, try to behave myself by following your laws, and it doesn't work. If anything is going to change of me, You're going to have to do it." Will the Holy Spirit frown on me? No. I believe He'll say "Great! Now I can go to work." He's waiting for me to stop TRYING to change myself and start TRUSTING Him to change me. And if you think that I cannot be changed by TOTAL reliance on the Holy Spirit, then you're saying that the Holy Spirit is NOT ABLE to do it for me. "Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." It is GOD who works in me to WILL and to ACT according to His good purpose. And I will trust Him to do just that! I CANNOT change myself, but I CAN spend time seeking the One Who can change me. I cannot change by my will power, but I can use my will power to decide to spend time with HIM. As I regularly wait in His presence, I put myself in position for Him to change me. During these times, He WILL reveal the things in my live, my thoughts, my attitudes, my behaviour, etc - that need to be changed. All He wants me to do is to get into agreement with Him. He wants me to say, "God, I see this area in my life that You are showing me, and I agree that it needs to be changed. However, I am powerless to do it. If You don't do it, it won't get done. Show me what I need to do, and give me the power to do it." THIS is what it means to work out my salvation/righteousness - cooperationg with the Holy Spirit from the time we accept Christ as our Saviour to the day we meet Him face to face, allowing Him to work out of us our ungodly traits and work us into the character of Christ. When that happens to perfection, wouldn't I be following that previous list of 10 things you gave me to do according to Paul, Peter, James, John....???? Come on, you can't say no. But comparing this scriptural way to YOUR way, it's indeed going to be a stumbling block for you. Because you think it's effortless on my side. Which is true/understandable - my only effort would be being and spending time with the Lord, and He will change me because of that. You, like the Pharisees, want to have the self-glory that your godly actions are a result of the involvement of your direct efforts in changing yourselves. I have God's nature in me now which He had planted as a seed the minute I received Christ. I no longer have my sinful nature. I am a new creation. 1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. Forgive me, but the only way I know how to bear the fruits from this seed is by watering it regularly with the water of the Word (Ephesians 5:26 by the washing with water through the word,). God provides just the right "temperatures" or circumstances we need to grow. The more I love God (because He first loved me), the more I hate sin and love the things He loves instead. The more I love God (because He first loved me), the more I want to do things to please Him. Is that so difficult to comprehend? 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. The power to change doesn't come from me - it comes from the Lord. My job is to continually get into the Word and see what Jesus looks like; like a mirror, the Scripture reflects His image. When I see what He is, I also see what I'm not. That's when I need to get into agreement with God and ask Him to change me. As time passes, a visible difference will be seen in my behaviour. |
||||||
7 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22515 | ||
Hi Hank, the question I was answering from Joe was: "Please show me ONE God-honoring work that we can do which is not in keeping with God's moral law." and I gave the example that the Pharisees were all doing God-honoring work which are in keeping of God's moral law. Meaning, ACTION wise, they did it. But their hearts are not in God at all. Likewise, we can ALL do God-honoring work which are in keeping of God's moral law, but if are hearts are not in doing it out of love for God, but instead doing it out of "religion", then we've missed the mark too. And about James (I write this to Joe too) - did I say that his words are NOT TRUE??? No, I did not. What I was trying to say is that he's not as strong a preacher on grace as Paul is - it is not to say that his understanding about it is out of line! Even in the church today, we have different preachers with different revelations in different areas. One might be good at preaching in the area of grace but not in the area of the end times (which is not to say he DOESN'T understand end times) and vice-versa. Yet BOTH revelations are from God! So with Paul and James, we first have to have a strong understanding of grace (from Paul) before we can understand how to work (from James). In all of Paul's letters, it ALWAYS starts with building the understanding of grace BEFORE he moves on to how we should really work (under grace). And no wonder that Paul's letters are first before James even though James wrote his first... . I'm sure God wants us to understand our FULL righteous standing in Christ first in order to know how we should work. Not through self-effort, but through Spirit-effort. We cannot change ourselves through the power of our will, but we can use our will power to make a decision to set aside time to seek God. |
||||||
8 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22385 | ||
Anyway....I think I'll end this discussion with the agreement that "Law and gospel are interwoven throughout both Testaments, and the proper understanding of both and the uses of both is key to understanding Scripture." You will always be able to find scriptures to support your understanding and I will always be able to find scriptures to support my understanding. One thing though - I say again - "no one pours new wine into old wineskins." Jesus was saying this for the benefit of the Pharisees to hear - I understand it to be the old covenant and the new covenant. Jesus, btw, NEVER mentioned anything about old wine in new wineskins (a question in your previous post)....so I'm sorry but won't waste energy trying to make understanding of that. Finally, I just want to say whether we agree with each other's views or not - we will BOTH go to heaven. It's okay if you want to "work out your righteousness" and it's okay if I chose to believe that I AM already righteous (and just need to behave so by learning from the Spirit) - both of us are already SAINTS and no longer sinners because of receipt of the salvation gift. You can go ahead and be Martha....I'll chose to be Mary (and both are believers of Christ, btw): Luke 10:38 As Jesus and his disciples were on their way, he came to a village where a woman named Martha opened her home to him. 39 She had a sister called Mary, who sat at the Lord's feet listening to what he said. 40 But Martha was distracted by all the preparations that had to be made. She came to him and asked, "Lord, don't you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!" 41 "Martha, Martha," the Lord answered, "you are worried and upset about many things, 42 but only one thing is needed. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her." I'll hold on to the word of God (which is Jesus) and I'll let God work in me completely. Bless you! |
||||||
9 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22383 | ||
You said that I said that our only duty was to know God/Christ better. What I really said was: "Our ONLY "duty" / "responsibility" under the new covenant is to know more about Jesus, respond to His work on the cross, and PRAISE Him for EVERY good and perfect gift - that includes the gift of our righteousness which cannot be attained totally or in part, but which can only be RECEIVED totally. PERFECT gift." And regarding all those things you listed which we should "do" - I agree with you on your point that "it is not done under our own power, but they are marks of a true believer." Marks because of a response. "1. We are saved by grace, through faith, apart from works. This is the basis of our salvation, and it is completely a work of God (Ephesians 2:8,9)." I agree. Salvation is a gift. "2. We are saved for the purpose of glorifying God through our good works (Ephesians 2:10)." That verse says "....to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Ministry work, perhaps? Run the church as a body? Let run it after His heart ("good works")? Fulfil our calling? "3. Law has never been a means to make one righteous, since all it does it shut man up under sin (Galatians 3:22) and reveal God's perfect standard for us (Psalm 19:7). The Law, while being perfect in itself, has never made anyone perfect (Hebrews 7:11, 18, 21)." Agreed. However, all things aside, if anyone is ABLE to fulfil the law perfectly, that would be one way to righteousness (law of righteousness). But you and I know, it doesn't work and we can't go that road to righteouseness. The OTHER way to righteousness then, is by faith and in recepit of it as a GIFT, not something to attain for since we have already attainted it by faith (righteousness of faith). Romans 9:30-32 "4. The good works which God empowers us to do for His sake are marks of our new life in Christ. A "faith" that does not demonstrate itself in works over time is a dead faith, which does not save (James 2:14-26)." One thing to note about James when reading his letter is that it was written BEFORE Paul's. A lot of practicalities in it, but it is milk since he did not have a full understanding of grace as Paul did. This is not to mean that we don't read James, but that we should be aware about his understanding of grace compared to Paul's. "Please show me ONE God-honoring work that we can do which is not in keeping with God's moral law." Well...I think the Pharisees are very good at doing ALL God-honouring work that is keeping with God's moral law.....so no, I can't show you ONE which is not keeping with God's moral. But well...we know what Jesus thought about them... "Paul, Peter, and James did not consider the law useless for the Christian. Not considering the Law obsolete, they preached the Law to believers:" They DID??!!!! They preached the LAW to believers???!!! Tim 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; 9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; So if the law is not made for a righteous man, how can it be made for us who are already made righteous in Christ? Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 6But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way,.... 8....."The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):.....10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. "Lastly, we have the example of Christ Himself. How did He describe His perfect life? As "fulfilling" the law rather than "abolishing" it (Matthew 5:17-18) We should absolutely see Jesus as our example, but that example he set for us is complete and perfect obedience to the moral law of the Father." Yes, He has fulfiled the law so that I don't have to fulfil it myself when I'm in Him. The law is not abolished because it's already written in my heart. That example he set for us is made complete and perfect because of total reliance on the Spirit. THAT'S the example we should follow - reliance on the Spirit. "causing the believer to contantly rely on God's grace and forgiveness." Rely on God's forgiveness? But He has already forgiven my past, present and FUTURE sins....so I should instead THANK Him for it. After all, when He died for my sins, He was dying for ALL sins of mine which are "future" since I wasn't even on this earth yet. |
||||||
10 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22229 | ||
So now, responding to God's responses: "But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;" --1 Peter 2:9 Yes, Lord - YOU chose me for all those things, and I PRAISE Your holy name and give YOU all the THANKS!!! ************ "Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles, so that in the thing in which they slander you as evildoers, they may because of your good deeds, as they observe them, glorify God in the day of visitation." 13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men-- 16as free... --1 Peter 2:12-16 Yes, Lord - I want to do all these things FREELY for You because You have made me righteous by Your grace. I'm so in love with You, Lord - because You first loved me. Teach me how I should behave Lord, for I cannot seem to do it on my own. How should I submit, Lord? Teach me how to reflect Jesus in my deeds, Lord - so that Your name will be glorified. *********** "....But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps," --1 Peter 2:20-21 Yes, Lord - Christ suffered for me and I want to follow His steps because of that. Even if I should suffer because of my faith in You, because of the love for Your gospel, or when people say things against me because of You - teach me Lord, to follow Your reactions to Your sufferings, for when you "...suffered, He (You) did not threaten, but committed Himself (Yourself) to Him who judges righteously;" (2 Peter 2:23). *********** "As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance, but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior; because it is written, 'YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.'" --1 Peter 1:14-16 Yes, Lord - as it is written in the old testement, I SHALL be Holy because YOU are Holy. I claim that holinessness, Lord - because you have fulfiled that promise for me in Christ when He died for me. Thank You for Your grace, Lord - You give me SO much which I don't deserve. You love me SO much to die for me. I am so eager to please You now Lord - and I thank You for Your Holy Spirit who is here to teach me how. ******** "Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more... For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality... For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification." --1 Thessalonians 4:1,3,7 Thank you Lord, that one of the fruits of Your Holy Spirit is self-control. It is not my own fruit, Lord - for my fruit is rotten. But thank you Lord, that by grace, You have cut off my old tree and killed my old fruits, so that Your Holy Spirit can take over, nourish me in Your word, and grow His fruits out of me instead. Glory be to You, Lord! *********** "Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven." --Matthew 5:16 Lord, Your light is my light - for without Your light, I have no light. Let me shine for You, Lord - let Your light shine in my life so that I can reflect it and so that all my good works will be good because of You, and men will glorify You. ********** "Instruct them to do good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share," --1 Timothy 6:10 Joe, that's not 1 Timothy 6:10? ********* "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." --Ephesians 2:10 Yes, Lord - I am Your workmanship created in Christ for good works and I should THEREFORE remember all the things mentioned in Ephesians 11 - 22 so that I can walk in these good works. Glory and praise to You, Lord. Joe, that's how I should respond to God under grace. I know I don't always do that, but I'm still learning from the Holy Spirit's teachings as to how to respond. One thing i've learnt, though - is that I should look to Him for teaching/behaviour modification, not the law. I'll respond to your other posts tomorrow as it's late now and I'm still at the office. Take care and God bless you! |
||||||
11 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22225 | ||
I'll reply you point by point so that we "stay in line" here: "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God." --1 Peter 2:16 "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another." --Galatians 5:13 Simply put - do not ABUSE grace by thinking that it's a license to sin. We should stand firm in our freedom, not abuse it!!!!! Romans 6 1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? *************** "But prove yourselves DOERS of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does." --James 1:22-25 First of all, DOERS (you emphasised) of what? The WORD (I'd emphasise that instead). NOT the law. If we simply hear the word (hearers) and not FED/meditate on it (doers), then we'll start to forget who we're supposed to reflect - Christ. THAT'S who the word is - Christ (the word which became flesh). "Perfect law, the law of liberty" or NIV "perfect law that gives freedom". As far as I know, the law, though IS perfect, does NOT give me liberty under the old convenant. It can actually BOUND me because it is conditional. But this PERFECT law, under GRACE, gives me full LIBERTY and I should "abide by it". I don't do the things the law says because I HAVE to, but I do it because I WANT to. That can only happen when I keeping falling in love with Jesus over and over and WANT to behave righteous in order to please Him and am eager to "do" the 'rules' and stay in the boundaries (and hence, I become an "effectual" doer - holy from inside out). Stand firm in your freedom (and don't abuse it)!!!! **************** "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification." --Romans 6:17-19 "...you became slaves OF righteousness." meaning I'm bounded to my righteousness (in Christ) and nothing can take that away. As opposed to "slaves OF sin", (not "sins") which I would've remained bounded to if not for Christ rescuing me. "....so now present your members as slaves TO righteousness," meaning BEHAVE righteously, resulting in (true) holiness (inside to out) which can only be produced from grace, not law. Question to ask perhaps is: present our members TO who? We know what we should present them AS, but who do we present them TO? Paul had already answered that in verses 13 of the same chapter: 13 ...but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members AS instruments of righteousness TO God. I should surrender my members to God, not to the law. That is to say "God, I present my body AS a slave to righteousness TO you - do what you will by Your grace." |
||||||
12 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22124 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... Let us have Heaven Inspired Behaviour instead of Self Attained Behaviour. Let's not put the words and works of God into boxes and label them "positional" or "practical", but let's just give God all the glory He deserves for giving freely us the things we DON'T deserve. Let's be TOTALLY "Made in Heaven" and not half "Made in Heaven". Our ONLY "duty" / "responsibility" under the new covenant is to know more about Jesus, respond to His work on the cross, and PRAISE Him for EVERY good and perfect gift - that includes the gift of our righteousness which cannot be attained totally or in part, but which can only be RECEIVED totally. PERFECT gift. May the Lord's grace be on you :o). Stand fast in your FREEDOM given to you by grace! :o). |
||||||
13 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22123 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... We have to surrender completely to the Holy Spirit and the more we give in to Him, the more He can work in us, and the more we become like Jesus in practice and the more our new nature reflects HIS nature. Mirror-image. We will manifest the fruits of the Spirit. Cannot be done through the law, can be done through the blood. Holiness / righteousness is not outward, it's inward. Work/law is from outward to inward, holiness / righteousness is inward to outward (from our hearts), and grace establishes our hearts, not law. 2 Thessalonians 2: "16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work." You said: "Take a look at John in Revelation 1 to see how our "righteous" selves react in the presence of the glorified Christ." You mean "fall at His feet as though dead"? I'm sure my present body which is still corruptible cannot yet stand in the holiness of God so yes, I do believe I'll fall. Does that mean I'm not righteous? No, I am righteous - but my body is still not yet transformed to the glorious one. John’s wasn’t. THAT's why he fell, that’s why I'll fall at His feet. But once I get my new body, the only reason I'll fall at His feet will be to worship Him and be in awe of him because my new body will by then be able to stand in His holiness. Finally, as for your statements: "By mocking the historic Christian views of positional righteousness vs. practical righteousness...... . But your view, which gained popularity in the 20th century, is probably the right one. After all, the first 1900 years of Christian thought probably didn't have the same wisdom that you apparently possess..." First of all, that last sentence of yours is not going to have that sarcastic effect you were trying to get on me. Why? Because for MANY years down in history, the church had managed to make people think the world was flat even though the bible does mention about it being a "circle". Who is more reliable regarding truths? The church or the bible? I'll stick to my bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Second of all, I admit that I'm not familiar with what the Reformers did in history, so I'm sure they've done a lot of good things. However, I certainly do not agree with their views of positional righteousness vs. practical righteousness. Just because it's a view rooted deep in history does not mean that it's growing the right tree. The "first 1900 years of Christian thought" is not as important as the thought of the bible - and the view which you don't agree with and "which gained (so-called) popularity in the 20th century," actually agrees consistently to what Paul demonstrated in his letters to the churches. In fact, it agrees consistently with the teachings of Jesus too. Grace can never mix with law, just as water can never mix with oil. Not even a bit of each. If we want true transformation, we have to let God do it. Not only will it then be effortless on our part, but it will also be true and totally "made in Heaven". Philippians 1 "5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." THAT short passage alone, summarises the gist of Philippians 3:8-14 which Paul wrote in detail after what he said in Philippians chapter 1. Would be strange, if he should contradict himself in the same letter. Joe, I know that your views about "working our way to attain righteousness in nature and practice through the law" means well. But once we bring the law in, self comes in too. They both come together. The old covenant is ALL about us doing things for God. In the new covenant, it's ALL about Christ doing things for us. Do we TRY, or do we TRUST? Do we STRIVE, or do we REST? Let's not steal Christ's glory by getting ourselves involved in His work in us. The works of Christ was a "stumbling block" to the people practised in the law (Pharisees) because everything which comes by grace from Christ became "too easy" to attain. Don't let the works of Christ in us be a stumbling block to you - we'll enjoy it more when we allow Him to work instead of making ourselves work our transformation. The devil KNOWS it's that EASY for us, who are children of God, to enjoy our new heritage by trusting and relying TOTALLY on God's grace, and he'll do his best to make us go back under law even though we preach Jesus Christ. The best channel for him to do that, is not through the world, but through the church. But GOD will ensure that His truth (which sets people free TOTALLY) breaks through the lies. (post continued in the following post).... |
||||||
14 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22122 | ||
(post continued from the previous post).... So, he goes on to talk about pressing on. Did he give an idea as to WHAT he wants to press on to? Yes, he did. In the NIV version, a new sentence starts at verse 10: "10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this,..." - that is, he doesn't know Christ enough yet, "...or have already been made perfect,..." - that is, his present body is still not the glorious body which Christ has, since that's the only imperfect "part" left of him still. Then he presses on and presses on to take hold of "Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death," for which Christ took hold of him. And he doesn't consider himself to have taken hold of that total knowledge and that total understanding of Christ yet. In other words, he's still learning. Nothing about "pressing on for righteousness" here at all. Not even anything by law. How can he press on to take hold of this? The only ways I know how is through the word and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. "in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead." Which is to say, till the point when he gets his newly resurrected body which agrees with his already righteous nature but which unfortunately, has not been obtained yet, since further down the chapter in verse 20 - 21, he ends with "20 But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body." Paul, not once in Philippians 3, wrote about obtaining/attaining righteousness, since he already said that his righteousness is through faith in Christ, not through law. After stating that, there was no more mention of righteousness or law, but about pressing on to having greater knowledge and understanding of Christ, etc. He said he wanted to know Christ, etc..... so for him to do that, the only way is to "press on". To continue. To push forward and know Christ deeper. How do we LEARN how to BEHAVE righteously (since we ARE already righteous)? Once we receive Christ, the LAW is no longer our "schoolmaster" or "tutor" : Gal 3:23-26 "23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." We don't NEED the law anymore in order to learn since we are NO LONGER under a tutor for every area of our lives ("no longer" sounds very absolute to me). Who do we need? Jesus. And His Spirit works in us, not us in us. Hebrews 13 "20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen." It is HE who works in us and the MEANS is the blood ("through the blood of the everlasting covenant"), NOT the LAW. But, but, but....isn't there SOMETHING we can DO??? We have to have our RESPONSIBILITIES as Christians too, right? Well...yes and no. We can't DO anything to grow the fruits of the Spirit on our own. How do we GROW then? Eat. Just eat. Feed on the Word of God, get to know Him more (like what Paul was pressing on to do) so that His righteous nature (which is also now made OUR righteous nature) will REFLECT on us and His Glory will SHINE on us. And then, give HIM all the glory for it ("to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen."). THAT'S our "RESPONSE-ABILITY" - the ablity to respond to His grace. Look back at the cross and respond accordingly. The law DEMANDS that we put in our self-effort, and the Holy Spirit cannot operate once "self" comes into the picture. We frustrate His work. And once we bring the law into the new covenant of grace, even just a little bit, we're trying to put new wine (new covenant) into old wineskin (old covenant) which will cause the old wineskin to burst (due to the expansion of the new wine and the inflexibility of the old wineskin) - when that happens, we lose BOTH the new wine and the use of the old wineskin. Grace becomes ineffective, law becomes diluted from it's original standard. (post continued in the following post).... |
||||||
15 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 22121 | ||
Hi Joe, First of all, I'm sorry if I had misunderstood you at some points and if I had offended you in any way. Also, if the tone of my post comes across to you as "prideful", it is not intended. The problem with communicating via the Internet or written form is that you lose all facial and audio expressions, and what was excitement to me may come across as prideful to you. In any case, I apologise as it was not meant to be that way. Forgiven, I hope? :o) Ok, let me try to address your agruements without too much excitement this time ;). First of all, am I now correct in understanding that yes, you DO believe we are righteous IN CHRIST and God sees us that way, BUT we are "not yet righteous in our nature and in our practice"? My reply now is going to be based on this understanding, so if you think I'm STILL misunderstanding you, then you'll know what my reply is based on instead. Actually, when I answered you the first time, I had posted it first and THEN realised that I was replying to a 3-month old post ;o). Didn't mean to bring you back into this discussion here again, but well - since you're already back, then we might as well continue :o). Ok - I'll start by answering some of your questions: "Where in Scripture do we find that our own spirits are seated at the right hand of God?" That's found in Eph 2:6 as follows: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,.... He MADE us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus. "Made" means it's already happened. So yes, it is CHRIST seated at the right hand of God ABOVE (as you pointed out and which I agree too), but aren’t we as well “IN CHRIST" as you do agree too? So since He's seated there, am I not right to say that we are too, since I'm IN Him seated “together in the heavenly places”? True, we're not PHYSICALLY in Him, so what part of us is it that's IN Him then? Must be our spirit, isn't it? Seated together in Christ. And now, the question which I did not answer previously - the million dollar question ;o) : "are we righteous just like Christ was in nature and in practice? First of all, when God sees/calls us righteous, does He make a distinction as to whether He's calling us righteous in nature like Jesus and / or righteous in spirit like Jesus? I fail to see Him making any distinction? When He says we're righteous, I take His word for it and claim by faith that we ARE righteous full stop. True, our flesh at times doesn't BEHAVE righteous, but we ARE righteous nevertheless. So I would say that we ARE righteous like Christ in EVERY aspect, but we're not BEHAVING perfectly righteous like Him yet because I am still LEARNING HOW to behave righteously, and my body is not helping much in the process because it has not yet been transformed to my glorious body. Me and my present body cannot yet comprehend my new righteous nature and my body is also constantly warring with it. As such, it doesn't always give me the righteous results/practices hoped for. You gave me the passage which Paul wrote about pressing on. My first question is, HOW does he press on? Did he say he uses the law to press on? My second question is, WHAT is he pressing on for? Did he say “righteousness”? You say "Paul sees that the righteousness to be gained from the Law is what is our own" but I don't see that he sees that at all. The only time he mentioned the word "law" in that passage is to say he counts all his losses as rubbish so that he may gain Christ, AND “….may be found in Him, NOT having a righteous of my (his) own derived from the Law, BUT that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith." (It's actually a full stop at the end of that sentence. Either a full stop or a ; or : which means the end of that sentence or point). As mentioned in my previous post, there are TWO ways to righteousness which Paul mentions consistanly in his epistles. The first way is through the law. The second way is through faith in Jesus Christ. In the Philippians 3:8-14 passage, all he did when he mentioned "law" was to once again show these two ways, and the way which HE was found in Jesus was righteousness through faith. So, he goes on to talk about pressing on. Did he give an idea as to WHAT he wants to press on to? Yes, he did. In the NIV version, a new sentence starts at verse 10: (post continued in the following post).... |
||||||
16 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 21910 | ||
You don't believe that you're already righteous because of the faith in what Christ did for you on the cross? To say that we are NOT righteous in Christ is a real insult to what He did on the cross for you. It's like telling Him "Jesus, your death kinda failed, you know. I'm not made righteous yet and look, I still have to work on my own (ie be self-righteous)! What kind of death is that, Jesus?" Joe, if you can tell me how, a man like Jesus who was without sin can become sin because of us, I'll tell you how we who are sinful can become righteous because of Him. But you want scripture, so here you go: Romans 1:16-18 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." Notice - by FAITH Romans 3:21-23 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. Notice again - by faith Romans 4:4-6 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. Wow - faith again!!! Romans 4:12-14 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. Faith again! Romans 9:29-31 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; Faith? Romans 9:30-32 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Hmm...law? No faith, no attainment.... 1 Corinthians 1:29-31 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Because of WHO? We have becomed WHAT? Our WHAT? 2 Corinthians 5:20-22 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. We in Him might become WHAT? I think I'm reading something wrong here - does your bible say the same thing? My, oh my! Galatians 2:20-22 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" HA! An insult to Christ's death indeed if we try to work our righteousness through the law!!! Haven't we got enough scriptures??? You want one more? Okay: Romans 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. I've been made righteous through Christ?!!! How can Paul dare to say that?!! BLASPHEMY! No, Joe - righteousness in Christ is a GIFT. Not something you work for, but something you RECEIVE. Just like salvation. That's GRACE. God sees me righteous IN Christ because Christ IS righteous and I had received Christ by faith. "Positionally", "experientially" are just word-plays - you get no assurance at all that you've been made whole by grace. Don't neutralise the gospel by bringing the law in. There are only 2 ways you can become righteous: a) through the law or b) through faith in Jesus Christ. TWO ways, Joe. Only ONE way works. God looks at your SPIRIT when he looks for righteousness. Not your flesh. Where's your spirit now, Joe? Seated at the right hand of God. How dare your spirit sit there unless it's RIGHTEOUS? No doubt, flesh will always war with spirit. That doesn't take away your righteous standing with God. Our flesh are still corruptible, but it will be made PERFECT when Christ returns! Bless you, brother. |
||||||
17 | Are Positional and Practical truths true | Ex 1:1 | Aliehs | 21689 | ||
Joe, isn't it easier to understand it this way: You are a King, so act like one! Even though you fall into sin or make mistakes, you're STILL a King. You ARE righteous, so behave righteous! Even though you fall into sin or make mistakes, you're STILL righteous (because and ONLY because of what Christ was on the cross. He was sin in God's eyes so that we are righteous in God's eyes). Nothing you DO or DON'T DO is going to change the fact that you already ARE righteous. Just like nothing you DO or DON'T do is going to change the fact that you are born a man. If you ask how we can dare to call ourselves already righteous, then answer me first how Christ who knew no sin can become sin on the cross. Did He DO or NOT DO something? |
||||||